ian
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Post by ian on Mar 9, 2013 11:37:38 GMT
All, I have been trawling through old papers again and found all sorts of stuff that was translated decades ago. Amongst the junk I have found a few details of obscure armour makers which I think might bear publication. There isn't much detail since I suspect nobody really knows anything about most of them. Anyway, here are a couple that are translated from Sasama:
Wakitō Ha
The entry in ‘Shokasō Ōran’ says nothing about this Ha nor its ancestory, but it is thought that they were armourers who lived in Wakitō near Genkoji in Nara who adopted the name. Since they are not heard of in the Edo period it is possible that they were a branch Ha of the Haruta. Looking at the only surviving known helmet, it is a 50 plate suji kabuto and although the forging is thin like that of the Haruta, its shape is more similar to the work of the Myochin. When the Kyoto Myochin turned their hand to making armour their attempt to create a new style probably followed integration into the Nara Haruta. Little research is possible with only a singe helmet to work with but it is thought to be late Muromachi. After this period one fails to hear anything of this group. The absence of products suggests they were absorbed into another group, most likely the Myochin.
Nagasone Ha
This family were Echizen armourers who seem to have moved to live in Edo. From the mid Edo period, due perhaps to a fall-off in business, we lose trace of them. Nagasone Kotetsu was an armourer who became better known as a sword specialist and was allegedly from this family. This famous man is said to have turned his hand to sword forging when demand for armour was low. A helmet and a pair of oda-gote are known signed Okisato.
Ian Bottomley
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Post by John Wee Tom on Mar 9, 2013 13:31:40 GMT
This is a very interesting thread that you've started, Ian. Though perhaps not as obscure as the two you mention (especially the Wakito Ha - I've never even heard of a reference to this school, there are so many schools about which relatively little information is available, including the Bamen, the Neo, Horai (not even sure if this is the name of a singular maker, or an actual school), etc..
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ian
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Post by ian on Mar 9, 2013 17:56:58 GMT
John, The Bamen, Neo etc will follow when I have typed them up into a legible form.
Ian Bottomley
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Mar 9, 2013 18:58:07 GMT
Hi!
Thanks Ian!
Great info, not easy to obtain for us rookies.
Anthony
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 9, 2013 22:46:23 GMT
Has anybody heard (or read) of a Myochin smith named "Yoshiharu" ?
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Luc t
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Post by Luc t on Dec 9, 2013 22:59:44 GMT
Haruta yoshiharu, yes, Myochin....? No.
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 10, 2013 6:56:50 GMT
I know, but it is strange. There is a kabuto signet this way ( if I'm not wrong). Pics follow. BTW, Luc you've already seen it  |
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 10, 2013 17:31:18 GMT
Here it is....   |
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 11, 2013 18:33:26 GMT
For the one who interested. The whole mei reads "Myochin Shikibu Ki (no) Yoshiharu saku". Obviously unrecognized smith. However, in the 18th century Muneakira and Munechika also signet "Shikibu"....?!
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Post by John Wee Tom on Jun 20, 2016 11:48:11 GMT
Whatever happened to this thread?
Ian - please do post that information about Neo, Bamen, Horai, etc..
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Jun 20, 2016 17:44:09 GMT
Yes, please!!!
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Post by John Wee Tom on Aug 19, 2016 20:14:15 GMT
Does anyone have any information on the Asai? Specifically, Asai Tomoyuki?
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Aug 20, 2016 9:39:20 GMT
Hi John, only found a menpo made by "Asai Katsushige" so far. Still searching..... ....seems to be a Haruta school smith. You should have a look at Ians article about Kaga history  |
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Post by John Wee Tom on Aug 20, 2016 13:58:40 GMT
Hi John, only found a menpo made by "Asai Katsushige" so far. Still searching..... ....seems to be a Haruta school smith. You should have a look at Ians article about Kaga history Thanks Uwe. Do you have an image of the menpo? I did see some mention of the Asai in Ian's account and obviously, very significant to the Kaga genealogy. However, no mention in Chappelear and so far I don't see anything in Shin Katchushi Meikan (about Asai specifically). |
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Aug 20, 2016 18:37:36 GMT
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Post by John Wee Tom on Aug 20, 2016 18:50:45 GMT
Thanks Uwe - I remember this menpo, but didn't realize that it was Asai.
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Post by Dave Thatcher on Aug 20, 2016 22:03:58 GMT
Its nice.
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Aug 21, 2016 8:28:13 GMT
Hi John, I'm afraid that I reached my limits for this task. Your "Tomoyuki" is not mentioned in the genealogy of the Asai (Narii) Dentaô family (throw an eye in Orikasa's book ). The only reference at hand currently. But, it's worth noting, that the genealogy record starting with "Katsumitu" (Asai Jubei 1623). The mask however is claimed to be from the 16th century...... doubts admitted!? Now, I guess, you owe me a elucidation. What's the reason why, you looking for an unrecorded smith, no one has ever heard from?  |
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Post by John Wee Tom on Aug 21, 2016 12:45:58 GMT
Now, I guess, you owe me a elucidation. What's the reason why, you looking for an unrecorded smith, no one has ever heard from? In due course my friend, in due course... |
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Post by Dave Thatcher on Aug 21, 2016 16:21:42 GMT
Go and check that fake mei John.....
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Post by John Wee Tom on Aug 21, 2016 19:34:45 GMT
Go and check that fake mei John..... Why do you think it's fake, Dave? |
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Post by Dave Thatcher on Aug 22, 2016 5:54:06 GMT
Just joking John, I do that a lot.
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 4, 2016 12:01:51 GMT
......... Wakitō Ha The entry in ‘Shokasō Ōran’ says nothing about this Ha nor its ancestory, but it is thought that they were armourers who lived in Wakitō near Genkoji in Nara who adopted the name. Since they are not heard of in the Edo period it is possible that they were a branch Ha of the Haruta. Looking at the only surviving known helmet, it is a 50 plate suji kabuto and although the forging is thin like that of the Haruta, its shape is more similar to the work of the Myochin. When the Kyoto Myochin turned their hand to making armour their attempt to create a new style probably followed integration into the Nara Haruta. Little research is possible with only a singe helmet to work with but it is thought to be late Muromachi. After this period one fails to hear anything of this group. The absence of products suggests they were absorbed into another group, most likely the Myochin. ......... Ian Bottomley Just want to add this, for reviving this old thread....   "Wakido Ietsugu saku" (formerly Ott collection) |
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Post by John Wee Tom on Dec 4, 2016 16:35:26 GMT
Uwe,
Did you buy this? I had my eye on it too - I love this hachi!
John
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Post by Dave Thatcher on Dec 4, 2016 17:09:42 GMT
Need a shikoro made....
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 4, 2016 18:11:02 GMT
Uwe, Did you buy this? I had my eye on it too - I love this hachi! John Unfortunately not John  It's a very unusual example for a bullet proof Haruta related hachi! |
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Luc t
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Post by Luc t on Dec 5, 2016 7:32:52 GMT
this kabuto may be inspired by the Tanko armour kabuto, Kofun era.
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Post by John Wee Tom on Dec 5, 2016 7:50:19 GMT
this kabuto may be inspired by the Tanko armour kabuto, Kofun era. Do you have a picture of this armour, Luc? |
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Luc t
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Post by Luc t on Dec 5, 2016 15:18:41 GMT
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Dec 5, 2016 16:22:27 GMT
this kabuto may be inspired by the Tanko armour kabuto, Kofun era. Luc, you refer to an so called "Shokaku-zuki" kabuto, used around the 5th century. Mainly for Tanko armored foot soldiers. Hmm...., a bit far fetched. However, the shape indeed reminds us on this early helmet type. |
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It's a very unusual example for a bullet proof Haruta related hachi!