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Post by Dave Thatcher on Feb 14, 2017 22:04:58 GMT
Luc
Q. Why do you consider him to be one of the most important smiths in history?
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Post by John Wee Tom on Feb 15, 2017 0:22:26 GMT
Dave,
I will leave Luc to answer on his own, but I'd like to share my opinion. Aside from the obvious fact that he already has the historical "seal" of being named one of the "Three Greatest Armourers of Japan" i.e. the Sansaku, I think there are some real objective reasons that he is considered by many the greatest of the three:
• as Luc says when you have held a Yoshimichi in your hand and are able to examine it closely, the balance, shape, and level of finish is truly remarkable.
• this is very evident in the tehen and the fact that he leaves this area without kanamono with the workmanship (tightness of plates; consistency of suji; difficulty of achieving the level of finish such that it does not have to be covered; etc.) completely visible.
• perhaps the most important consideration is the fact that he is the inventor of the s-shaped plate or "taka-niku" which reputedly creates an air pocket that dampens the concussive effects of a blow. This engineering feat was taken up by the Yoshi-ryu and by the Saotome and was one of the most important developments in Japanese armour.
Just off the top of my head and I'm sure Luc, Ian and others will be able to add to these points...
John
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Post by Dave Thatcher on Feb 15, 2017 7:26:39 GMT
If you want to expand upon this thread and attrack comments you have ignite the fire.
Keep the information coming.
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Feb 15, 2017 8:54:46 GMT
Hi!
What are the main differences between the 3 smiths?
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Luc t
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Post by Luc t on Feb 15, 2017 10:53:38 GMT
Luc Q. Why do you consider him to be one of the most important smiths in history? he made a hachi with a complete new technique. Double plates, curved, and extremely solid. This was late Muromachi hightech. Only for the very rich and famous daimyo of his time. |
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Post by Luc t on Feb 15, 2017 11:00:26 GMT
Hi! What are the main differences between the 3 smiths? AdV very interesting. in fact, you should see the 3 near eachother. Nobuie is a lot earlier (first part 16th century), and more primitive. But he made a huge step forward in comparison with the akodanari of that time. He made the first 'technical' kabuto. Gitsu made the first gun-resistent technical kabuto. Takayochi perfectionized the technique and finish of Gitsu. I never saw a better technical kabuto than his. |
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Post by Luc t on Feb 15, 2017 11:01:51 GMT
btw, if you see the tree of them togetgher, you will have a delirium. Ask Aymeric!
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Post by David M on Feb 15, 2017 11:53:50 GMT
Very informative Luc, thanks a lot!  btw, if you see the tree of them togetgher, you will have a delirium. Ask Aymeric! Hmm, is that why Amyeric talks funny?   |
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Feb 15, 2017 11:54:02 GMT
Hi!
I wonder where that could be acompliced? see them side by side. Maybe at Aymeric's?
I have seen 2 Takayoshi in Japan they are rarer than ghosts....
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ian
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Post by ian on Feb 15, 2017 12:10:23 GMT
Or were there only two? Ian B |
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Post by Luc t on Feb 15, 2017 12:16:00 GMT
Ian, you think like Orikasa...
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Post by Luc t on Feb 15, 2017 12:18:55 GMT
Hi! I wonder where that could be acompliced? see them side by side. Maybe at Aymeric's? I have seen 2 Takayoshi in Japan they are rarer than ghosts.... AdV I once posted a picture of such an event. 4 years ago. |
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Post by John Wee Tom on Feb 15, 2017 12:23:56 GMT
Hi! I wonder where that could be acompliced? see them side by side. Maybe at Aymeric's? I have seen 2 Takayoshi in Japan they are rarer than ghosts.... AdV I once posted a picture of such an event. 4 years ago. Post it again, Luc! |
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Feb 15, 2017 13:59:05 GMT
Hi!
Well, Ian, I couldn't tell. Both well known collectors claiming they had the real deal.Who knows, both of them claimed they had the only real 120 ken Saotome in existens.....
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Post by ian on Feb 15, 2017 16:01:11 GMT
I would be so much happier if someone would come up with some real evidence for the subject of this thread. So we have the 'Sansaku' - Nobuie, Gitsu and Takayoshi.
Starting with Nobuie. Here is a smith who dates his helmets to around Eisho (1504 - 1521) to Tenbun (1532-1555), the earliest dated 1505 according to Sasama. This was a time when no armourer even signed helmets never mind dated them. Some helmets are also inscribed with his address which is even worse. So here we have a guy working in the Muromachi period, whose helmets were supposed to be the best ever, yet not a single armour of any of the most wealthy and famous of the Sengoku Jidai has a Nobuie helmet. All the Nobuie helmets I have come across are part of Edo period armours.
Even worse is the statement in the Myochin genealogies that he was granted the use of the character 'Nobu' from Takeda Shingen (Harunobu) who wasn't even born until 1521. Then there is the problem that so may helmets bear totally different signatures suggesting there were many generations of Nobuie's. If that is true, who were the Muromachi / Momoyama wearers of these helmets? Sorry but all this says to me these helmets are Edo creations.
Now we come to Gitsu (Yoshimichi). Sasama says he was working around Tenbun - Eiroku (1532 - 1570) He at least only ever signed with his name, in fact he may have been the one who started the trend. It is interesting that around the end of this period Tokugawa Ieyasu (born in 1543) was wearing armours with zunari whilst Date Masamune (born 1567) may have worn a helmet by him. I can however accept he did work during the Sengoku era.
Finally Takayoshi. Firstly his extant work is very rare and has a two character signature. Again this sound right for the later part of the Muromachi / Momoyama period. Why he made so few helmets is unknown but maybe he died young or was killed in the fighting.
All this suggests to me there were only two real people, Gitsu and Takayoshi. There is no real concrete evidence when they worked but let us say around the Momoyama era. Looking through surviving armours of the era -
Akita Sanesue (1576 - 1659) 32 plate suji bachi with shinodare unsigned, Mogami Yoshiaki (1546 - 1614) akodanari, Katakura Kagetsuna (1557 - 1615) 62 suji bachi unsigned, Uesugi Kenshin (1530 -1578) 62 plate suji bachi unsigned and zunari,Sanada Yoshimune 1576 - 1615 42 plate suji bachi unsigned. Satake Yoshinobu 1570 - 1633 akodanari, I could go on but you get the idea.
Ian B
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Post by John Wee Tom on Feb 15, 2017 17:10:10 GMT
As always, much respect for your erudite logic and analysis, Ian.
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uwe
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Post by uwe on Feb 15, 2017 17:23:18 GMT
I am a bit surprised about the very poor interest for this thread. We are talking about one of the most important kabuto smiths ever. Understanding the sansaku opens a whole new world of knowledge. Luc, it's not the lack of interest in my case...... |
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Post by Luc t on Feb 15, 2017 17:30:50 GMT
Ian, Ian, Ian... you start talking like Orikasa ;-). Nobuie, the ghost-katchushi...
It is possible. There is NOT ONE armour with proven pedigree, older than momoyama, with a sansaku kabuto.
If Nobuie was the first, technically this would be correct, but why these early datings, that are following a normal lifetime? There is one known Yukinoshita armour, dated somewhere around 1580, with a Nobuie kabuto(source Takemura sensei, 2016)
I have one, signed Nobuie with 2nd kao and dated 1531. The kanamono and tehen seems muromachi...and I know a simmilar one in Japan with the same kanamono and tehen. It still puzzles me. But you have a point.
About Gitsu and Takayoshi, I am convinced they worked around 1600. I have kabuto form both. One is integrated in a Yukinoshita dated 1596. One Takayoshi is Tameshigiri. Both smiths kabuto are found on famous armour from the momoyama period, mostly the eastern clan gusoku, a lot of them on Yukinoshita armour.
About the technical aspects, Aymeric explained this very will in Florence. I can only repeat and agree with him.
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Post by Dave Thatcher on Feb 15, 2017 22:20:20 GMT
I dont see these kabuto offering any more protection than a zunari. In fact the zunari is more practical. Faster production, cost effective etc. So why should we be held in awe of these hachi and their smiths? Is this really collector snobbery as only a few can own such examples or am im being the chav
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Post by Anthony on Feb 15, 2017 23:08:36 GMT
Hi!
Availability and demand I guess, Dave.
The normal forces of any market?
That does not in my eyes deminish the Zunari.
It is like the military fans discuss which battle tank was the best during WW2? The techically advanced Panther? The mighty tiger, with it's 88 gun and heavy armor? No probably the simple T 34 or Sherman they where mass produced and probably was the best in the end.
That doesn't reduce the military buffs fascination for the German tanks.
I can appriciate all kind of kabuto, I love my karuta zhukins as much as my Bamen or Saotomes, they are all special in their own way.
Nuff rambling back on topic.
Rare and expensive kabutos are prone to fake. What is it the fakers can't duplicate when talking Gitsu and Takayoshi. Nobuie is obviously fakers paradise....
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Post by John Wee Tom on Feb 15, 2017 23:20:27 GMT
I dont see these kabuto offering any more protection than a zunari. In fact the zunari is more practical. Faster production, cost effective etc. So why should we be held in awe of these hachi and their smiths? Is this really collector snobbery as only a few can own such examples or am im being the chav Dave, Referring specifically to Yoshimichi, I think it's a question of the ingenuity of the engineering and the time that it was done, combined with the skill required to make such a kabuto, and capped off with the artistry and precision to make these kabuto so perfectly. Before Yoshimichi, no one had done the s-shaped plates to create that air pocket - everyone else was making variations on the same theme of helmets made of pie-shaped flat plates. Even afterward, it's only a few smiths like the Saotome and the Yoshi-ryu who had the skill and inclination to make similar helmets. Even today, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around what it takes to make these kabuto. Genius is when someone is ahead of their time and is the first to do something, whether you're talking about Copernicus, Einstein, Leonardo, Picasso, Pollock, Steve Jobs, Muhammad Ali or yes, Yoshimichi. Revolutionaries all, who did things differently than others around them. No one's arguing about the utility, functionality and effectiveness of the zunari. For sure, a well-made zunari with thick plates offers at least as much - if not more - protection at a fraction of the price, much like a Subaru WRX is for many people as fun to drive as an Aston Martin (to use a metaphor you can relate to!). However, I know which one I'd rather have. You're also right that there's a level of collector snobbery, much like for the samurai, the kabuto was a reflection of their status, taste, aesthetic, wealth, achievements, etc.. Rarity, beauty, historical significance, craftsmanship and personal taste all go into evaluating something - that's what makes collecting fun. We can't all collect the same stuff! John |
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A classic
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Post by Masanobu on Feb 16, 2017 0:33:31 GMT
Another question re: Gitsu vs. Nobuie - most references state that the suji on Nobuie kabuto are filed down as they approach the tehen while the suji on Yoshimichi helmets are not filed down. However, it seems that the suji on Fabrice's helmets do taper as they approach the tehen. Mine does too. Thoughts about this discrepancy? Dear John, I have both Yoshimichi and Nobuie Kao. The difference is obvious and suji filed close to the tehen in the case of Nobuie. There is no discrepancy with your and my helmets. Thanks. |
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Post by John Wee Tom on Feb 16, 2017 0:37:21 GMT
Another question re: Gitsu vs. Nobuie - most references state that the suji on Nobuie kabuto are filed down as they approach the tehen while the suji on Yoshimichi helmets are not filed down. However, it seems that the suji on Fabrice's helmets do taper as they approach the tehen. Mine does too. Thoughts about this discrepancy? Dear John, I have both Yoshimichi and Nobuie Kao. The difference is obvious and suji filed close to the tehen in the case of Nobuie. There is no discrepancy with your and my helmets. Thanks. Thanks Fabrice. However, I didn't mean there's a discrepancy between your and my helmet - I meant the discrepancy between what the books say (that the suji on Yoshimichi helmets are not filed down as they approach the tehen) and the fact that your and my helmet seem to have the suji tapering as they get closer to the tehen. |
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Post by Masanobu on Feb 16, 2017 1:01:35 GMT
Dear John, I have both Yoshimichi and Nobuie Kao. The difference is obvious and suji filed close to the tehen in the case of Nobuie. There is no discrepancy with your and my helmets. Thanks. Thanks Fabrice. However, I didn't mean there's a discrepancy between your and my helmet - I meant the discrepancy between what the books say (that the suji on Yoshimichi helmets are not filed down as they approach the tehen) and the fact that your and my helmet seem to have the suji tapering as they get closer to the tehen. I did not misunderstand you John and know you were not talking about a difference between your and my helmet. If you look at a Nobuie Kao, you will see the suji are clearly filed and almost not existing when approaching the tehen. While for Yoshimichi those are still there as high as should be but indeed not as high as they are close to the Koshimaki. From an aesthetic stand point those are perfect.
Thanks.
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Post by John Wee Tom on Feb 16, 2017 1:09:21 GMT
Thanks Fabrice. However, I didn't mean there's a discrepancy between your and my helmet - I meant the discrepancy between what the books say (that the suji on Yoshimichi helmets are not filed down as they approach the tehen) and the fact that your and my helmet seem to have the suji tapering as they get closer to the tehen. I did not misunderstand you John and know you were not talking about a difference between your and my helmet. If you look at a Nobuie Kao, you will see the suji are clearly filed and almost not existing when approaching the tehen. While for Yoshimichi those are still there as high as should be but indeed not as high as they are close to the Koshimaki. From an aesthetic stand point those are perfect.
Thanks.
Cool - thanks for clarifying, Fabrice! How about posting pics of your Nobuie! |
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Post by Masanobu on Feb 16, 2017 1:19:16 GMT
I did not misunderstand you John and know you were not talking about a difference between your and my helmet. If you look at a Nobuie Kao, you will see the suji are clearly filed and almost not existing when approaching the tehen. While for Yoshimichi those are still there as high as should be but indeed not as high as they are close to the Koshimaki. From an aesthetic stand point those are perfect.
Thanks.
Cool - thanks for clarifying, Fabrice! How about posting pics of your Nobuie! I lost most of my pictures when changed my computer. The drawback of being an analog person. I should find some time to take some and post those someday. I know this will disappoint many of our members. Sorry for that. |
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Post by Luc t on Feb 16, 2017 6:28:42 GMT
I dont see these kabuto offering any more protection than a zunari. In fact the zunari is more practical. Faster production, cost effective etc. So why should we be held in awe of these hachi and their smiths? Is this really collector snobbery as only a few can own such examples or am im being the chav It is essential to know the work of the sansaku to inderstand edo kabuto. It is also essential to understand nanbokucho kabuto to understand the sansaku's kabuto. And if I may choose between a Audi A4 and a Aston Martin db9, well I know the Audi is much more reliable and cheaper, but.... |
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Post by uwe on Feb 16, 2017 7:02:08 GMT
...... If you look at a Nobuie Kao, you will see the suji are clearly filed and almost not existing when approaching the tehen. While for Yoshimichi those are still there as high as should be but indeed not as high as they are close to the Koshimaki. From an aesthetic stand point those are perfect......
I was aware of that difference, but not in this strict manner. Can we generally say Nobuie="vanished" suji and Yoshimichi=tapered suji?
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Luc t
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Post by Luc t on Feb 16, 2017 8:05:21 GMT
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Post by Masanobu on Feb 16, 2017 8:20:23 GMT
Definitely it talks by itself, even a bit excessively. |
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